Jeff's Column - Where Have All...

Scrolling though Ebay the other day, I couldn't help but notice that the number of quality bottles is drying up. Walking through bottle shows sometimes, I notice that the number of quality bottles is evaporating. What's up with that? I know there are a ton of good bottles out there, but where are they? I put a few bottles on Ebay recently... items that were either leftover from an auction or just something someone brought in. They were some of the better items on line, and that surprised me. It seems there used to be great stuff on Ebay. Is it just me?

If bottles are really drying up in the marketplace, they have to be in collections. That would make one believe that the supply is low and demand high. I know our auction house is forever looking for fresh items, often coming up empty. Is the market really that strong, or are people just holding on to their bottles hoping that their value will continue to go up? More people, less bottles…supply and demand. There's a hell of a demand in some categories right now--that's good right? Your collections are becoming more valuable…right? We'll see as time goes on... it may take the sale of only a few massive collections to rock the market... or can a few large collections be easily absorbed? More questions than answers here. I'd love to hear your opinion.

It's been pointed out that there are good books coming out in the hobby. In my last column I didn't mean to infer that we have a literary drought. Many of the books are regional, but that's fine. I personally congratulate anyone who's contemplating a book right now. I've been through it, and it’s a money-losing grind. However, the satisfaction of putting something out that other people will actually read and use as a reference is wonderful. New methods of publishing can make it cheaper and more flexible to publish a book.

As for bottle collecting being mostly a male hobby, I concur that the majority of collectors are male, but there are a great number of women involved. Women wrote some of the best books we still use today. Certainly, American Glass and their offspring by Helen McKearin, Arlene Palmer's Glass in Early America, Ruth Lee's Early American Pressed Glass, and of course, the volume of work done by Betty Zumwalt (to whom I dedicated my book) are of utmost importance to the hobby. Without these women, our hobby world would certainly be a less informed and more dimly lit place.

Speaking of literature, what about the bottle magazines out there? Do you read them? Do people really care? I advertise in some of them, as much to help support them as to realize any business benefits. I sold advertising for over 10 years, and feel I know a little about it. If you think it's not worth advertising, you may find out how much it's worth when you don't. As for content, the Federation's magazine, Bottles & Extras, has quite a bit of info, although much of it is dated. I don't think that it's published frequently enough, though they do have a newsletter that comes out regularly. BAM is excellent... lots of articles and pictures, even if some of the layout is a bit rough. Antique Bottle & Glass Collectors was the mainstay for many years. People couldn't wait to get their issue, in order to check the yellow section and see what people were selling. I see more wanted ads now than for sale ads. They're all worthy magazines and they make a noble effort..

Is the Federation doing its job well? I don't know. I guess it's a little like... what have you done for the Federation lately? I don't go to enough functions to measure their effectiveness, although I know they work hard at it. It's not always convenient to fly to the National, or other popular shows. But, once you're there, it often seems worth your time and money. I plan on going to more out-of-state affairs. It's a good excuse to check out some of the cities I haven't seen... or at least their bars. Hey, if Jim Hagenbach, Norman Heckler and Ralph VanBrocklin can come out to Auburn, CA for a show, we can fly to Nashville.

Infighting?... in the bottle world? No, not possible…unless of course there is something to be gained or lost. I don't know what it is, but it seems that there's a scent of bad blood out there. Of course, why wouldn't a person have a beef if they sent money for a bottle but no one ever responded? Or, you went to buy a bottle and someone knowingly intercepted your expected purchase by undercutting you? We've probably all experienced something like that, we just shouldn't blame the entire hobby. A friend of mine was scammed by an Ebay look-alike the other day (we're running a story on this scam) and he wanted to kill the guy…still might. He lost over $3,000 and isn't a bit happy about it. He knows it's just a few jerks out there that ruin it for everyone. By the way, if that individual is reading this... your victim has the FBI involved and is planning on coming out to see you. I would return the money before he gets there.

Sometimes the bottle world seems quite lonely. You read Maine Antiques and very little of it has to do with bottles. Of course, very little has to do with stamps, either. It does seem that almost everyone I run into has a bottle story... "My mother used to dig in old dumps and had a lot of old bottles," I hear all the time. When pressed, they're usually referring to clear medicine and wine bottles. I get probably five emails a day from people with bottles, wondering what they are. I get another three or four on the phone. I try to help and, most of the time, I have to give them the unfortunate news that their Clorox bottle isn't rare or valuable. That's the hardest part of being a bottle auctioneer... telling people that their stuff just doesn't cut it. I can't make a clear med into a rare bitters... I wish I could. I tell people to keep looking, they do, and once again, I have to give them the bad news. So, where have all the good bottles gone? I wish I knew.

That's it, the bottles are in the ground. I have been digging since 1978, 12 years old or so. I am from farm country and could walk down a path and see one clam shell and track down a dump like an Indian tracker. The good ol-days. I still try to get out there as much as possible, but I try to find the privies now and, if I have a few good digs a year, I'm happy. Life has taken over most of my time.

The good bottles are in the same place they've been for the last 100-200 years... the ground and the bottom of the river. It's your job to get out there and bring them up. There are literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of "good" bottles buried on this continent. So, instead of mourning the state of the hobby, grab a shovel and start digging.

I remember my first bottle show I went to in 1970. It was jammed packed with buyers and sellers of all ages. Now 35 years later that same annual show is a just fraction of what it used to be. It used to be a family hobby and there was tons of places to dig. Most collectors back then were diggers. The digging is what really made collectors out of lots of folks. Most anyone could pick up a shovel and move dirt to find bottles, they were everywhere. Unlike most collectible fields, anyone rich or poor was on an equal ground when it came to having a killer bottle if they were to dig it. Now you have to practically be a scientist armed with maps, specialty tools, knowledge of areas already dug and a good method because the easy stuff to dig is history. You also have to be a good salesman in order to get a permission to dig. Not only that but in lots of areas you now have the bottle police (archeologist) wanting to arrest you for digging a hole. There were no computers or electronic games back then like there are now. What a waste of time for the youth now days to sit in front of a screen staring into a man made object and calling that fun. We had twelve channel TV but rarely did I spend much time with that after I discovered bottles at about the age of 12.

There will always be a strong market for the killer rare bottles simply because there's more collectors for them than examples to go around. However the more common middle of the road stuff suffers in value increase because there's more examples to go around and not enough collectors to absorb it in order to drive the price up. Generally it's the new collector who starts with the middle grade stuff because he's already had his fill of junkers and doesn't feel comfortable enough buying a heavy. The hobby desperately needs new blood and the only way that will happen now days is for it to be promoted. It's my opinion that the Bottle Federation needs to wake up and address this issue instead of focusing so much on existing collectors who are a dieing breed. - Lou Lambert

Jimbo, this may or may not be off topic -- I don't know -- but I agree that the "younger generation" of bottle collectors is totally and hopelessly spoiled. Like you I remember the days (35 or more years ago) when I'd dig all day to find an unembossed, aqua "cork top" bottle.... And I was thrilled to death to get one.

Bingo Andrew! The lesser items languish 'cause there's little interest from the young'uns nowadays. They've got so much more than we did growing up, yet they're so booorrreddd (whining sound). I grew up in south Georgia (still live a mile from where I was raised), had a 2 channel TV, and didn't have air conditioning until I was 35. Shoot, I stayed outdoors rambling all the time, always picking up things. Started on bottles at 14 and boy did something click. 31 years later, I'm still as hot-and-heavy passionate about old bottles as I was in the beginning. Man, when I finally found a mint Royal Crown bottle with the red and yellow pyramids, I thought I had reached the pinnacle of bottledom and there was no way it could get any better. Now I've settled into colored pontiled medicines and if I could live to 200, I'd never tire of good glass. While I realize that we won't desire anything material, I'm just hoping when I get to Heaven that God has this long display cabinet of premier glass for us to just stroll by and admire - for an eternity. That'd be way cool, huh? Remember they would melt in Hell. Later on, Jimbo

I believe the bottle collecting/digging needs to be promoted to the younger generation. I may be wrong but I would bet money that myself and three of my friends are the only collectors/diggers in California under 25 years of age. For example, last month at the Morro Bay show how many people under 35 years of age did I see. Hmmm.....ZERO !! I was by far the youngest person there. I do my best to promote the hobby to people my age but more needs to be done. If not, I predict a crash in the bottle market as there will be a surge of bottles on the market once collectors begin to age, lose interest, or pass away. Who will be there to buy the bottles ??????? Something to think about. ---Andrew Koutsoukos

I've really enjoyed reading these comments and agree with a lot of them. The quality of bottles on Ebay has greatly diminished. I've been afraid to bid on any of them. I enjoy going to bottle shows in the Midwest and see what your buying. The bottle magazines are great but the number of 4-sale items has really shrunk. When I'm gone, there will be a lot of nice medicines and a few bitters go up for auction somewhere unless my wife just throws them out, which she has threatened to do. I'm hoping for a grandchild to take an interest and I can just pass them on.

I read your article and gosh darn it, bottles are getting hard to find out here in Florida. I have some good ones but dang if I can find any at shows that fit in my collection. My favorite is Schlitz but I won't turn down a Bud or Mickey Big Mouth. I ain't into those fancy beers like Michelob cause frankly they's expensive and I'd as soon have a Natural Light. Anyway, you are sure right about them getting hard to find. By the way, your picture is great, you are one handsome guy! You're also a darn good writer. Best to ya. -Trevor W.

You bring up a very interesting question...the good bottles are certainly getting harder to come by all right, and I believe that there are several reasons why. First, is the fact that the majority of collectors seem to want to go right to the top of their chosen category of interest very quickly. Everyone wants the good stuff, and since there is such a limited quantity of the "best" items, they are held tightly in collections until absolutely necessary to move along...usually due to a financial circumstance, or perhaps to acquire a "monster" piece. My point is evidenced by the huge glut of glass available at most shows, or on Ebay. There are literally thousands of bottles that do not even get picked up at a show. They just get carted around for years, and generate no interest. Nobody wants to start with modest pieces anymore. I see the common items that now have virtually no monetary value, so nobody wants them. I see the rare items going through the roof, as collectors do not want to lose perhaps their only chance in a million years to get one. You can bet when the old time heavy's sell their collections there will be a record setting event followed by a crash of enormous magnitude. Collectors also succumb to boredom as their collecting specialty comes to a standstill. I collect applied top private mold Western flasks...there are not a lot of these around as it is, but just try to stay interested when the last two pieces are needed, and it is almost impossible to ever get a chance at one. I have branched out into meds, ammonias, sodas, or any other Western glass that strikes my fancy. I believe that if more collectors would appreciate the beauty of even the less valuable, but still gorgeous glass available, this hobby would become more healthy. There is a cycle of maturity that all hobbies go through, and a natural ebb, and flow. The 60s had 38 members of a bottle club here in my local area! Now there are a handful of collectors in my whole state that are really active (Oregon). The good stuff is out there, but as.... (email stopped)

I'm not in the bottle market any longer for the simple reason that I'm very content now with what I have, but a few years ago I was pretty active on ebay and found some GREAT western fifths and flasks. Yes, I was burned once or twice, but never by the bottle people. That said, I had nothing else to do yesterday so I looked at the current auctions on ebay. Bummer!!! There was almost nothing of interest to me, and worse still it appears that NONE of the folks I trusted and dealt with on a regular basis just a couple of years ago are still active on the site.

I don't know what's going on. As I've said I'm not selling any bottles now either, but that's because I like what I have and I'm almost certain I could never afford anything else as good or better. You're right, though; if the demand for my stuff drives prices high enough I may have to change my mind. -Kirk Baddley

Hey, Chris, a few years ago, on some show called Antique Appraisal Fair, or something like that, this poor guy brought in a large, triangular Owl Drug poison, deep cobalt, to be appraised. The dude doodooing the appraisal told him it was a reproduction (I didn't know they'd been reproduced) simply because it was in such GOOD CONDITION! That was his only reason. The bottle looked good to me and the poor fella left probably thinking that if a bottle is mint, it's fake. Guess we better rake the shelves. Jimbo in Ga.

Jimbo- Yeah, that's a bottle that was never reproduced. I had a customer once who returned a bottle because its condition was too good! He said it was a reproduction and furthermore, would never bid in my auction again. When I stopped laughing, I told him no problem--just another part of being an auctioneer. -Jeff

Here is some more food for thought. The other day I was talking to a bottle collector who made the following statement: "You can't even buy a decent flask for fewer than 10,000.00." It's comments like this that smack of elitism at its worst. It is this type of talk that poisons new collectors from getting into bottles. For 10,000. I could put together a beautiful flask collection. No, there would not be an American Systems, Hard Cider, Blue Masonic, Wide mouth Sunburst, or Jared Spencer, but who cares. I could buy some very nice early Masonics, Sunburts, Beaded Sides, Success To The Railroad, Calabashs' and still have money to fly to New York and see a Broadway play. My point is that price alone does not make a bottle attractive. To me, a Dr. Kilmers Kidney and Liver Cure, or a Warners Safe Cure is just as nice as a Dr. Craigs Cure, the later just happens to be rarer. Everybody needs to have a Kilmers and Warners in their collection. Another example is the Drakes Plantation Bitters, in plain amber. You can buy one of these any day of the week for around 125.00, but they are really great bottles for the money...an applied lip, cabin shaped bitters bottle, they are great!! Again, everybody should have one. I am sure all collectors could come up with their own lists. If we want new collectors to come into the hobby, we need to promote the hobby, not just the prices. I also would still like feedback on the following point: "Why do you never see nice bottles on the Antiques Road Show"? -Chris Hartz -ps For those of you that missed the tiny Morro Bay Bottle Show, you missed a real treat...although no Jared Spencers showed up...!!

I think ebay is good for one thing, To buy the cheaper stuff to make well rounded collections, like cone inks for example. And I also feel that good stuff is hard to find. I try to dig as much as I can, but try to find a mint local beer for sale forget it.

Very interesting article by Mr. Wichmann, however I find that if a certain rare bottle appears on e-bay, there seems to be two or three similar ones pop up out of the woodwork! I have purchased many flasks at shows, auctions and e-bay over the last 45 years, and e-bay gets worse by the day! The scam artists are hatching un-hindered! I have been "scammed" twice by seemingly honest dealers with excellent "feedback". One even threatened me with "Non paying buyer" simply because I wanted to personally examine the bottle without sending the money by mail! (He would not sell the bottle in person!) (He has recently stopped selling on e-bay). Another stole 185.00 by simply not sending the bottle----E=bay was absolutely no help, and could care less! I am very careful to buy from reputable dealers, but Buyers BEWARE!! I have nearly stopped going to the western shows because of dealers trying to sell junk at HIGH prices! Some shows charge more to park than it costs to enter the show. Lastly, I do buy from auctions, and have only one pet peeve---- Mr. Heckler conducts a fabulous sale, but he is always stating "color is king, aqua is dead" . I feel he is cutting his own throat in that there are some very beautiful aqua flasks and bottles out there, and some new collectors might be made leery of acquiring them from such advice. Please don't get me wrong, I see where Norm is coming from, but I don't agree with anything that detracts from the hobby. Sincerely, Merle Slay Gig Harbor, Washington.

Very interesting. Is this why you seem to be having less auctions per year than in the past? Or are you still having the same # as in the past? I am a relatively new collector and I have certainly noticed a lot less quality bottles coming up on Ebay. But I still see a number of great bottles coming up in specialty auctions like yours, Heckler, and Glassworks. As a long time collector of antiques, I believe in the long-term buy & hold (similar to the stock market or real estate) but you must really enjoy your item and be willing to weather the ups & downs in the short term. -Stephen

Nice to see your wonderful image! I believe that this combination exists: far more collectors willing to bid. Many collectors believing because of the above, it is far better to hold on to those better bottles until they have to sell them to use the money for other uses, than to let them go now and later discover they sold them too soon and too cheap... later. Everyone wants to believe the price they get is an all time high that will never be beaten, like selling a smooth base h194 dr.h for $1400! Now that is your all time record. Can you beat it? The solution? You must convince those that are not saving them to use the profits derived for putting children in school or retirement later, that a bird in hand is worth two in the bush, and that other new bottles they have not yet had or seen will surface for them to spend their money on provided the above is not their reasons for hording. Each time I have sold to anyone, whether by your action, direct or on ebay, I found a new item/bottle that was better, soon after to spend my money on. -Your pal in Texas, Richard Clark